Disappointing Hybrid Turbo result

[orixy]

Hi guys, jus like to share my disappointing results from doing up hybrid turbo. So here's the setup:

- TF035 housing with TD04L internals tested and balanced at 1.6bar max
- 2.5" turbo downpipe, Trust PEII muffler, rest of exhaust stock including header
- Lancer GSR 390cc injectors
- Evo X fuel pump
- Sard fuel regulator set at 3bar
- FMIC with Carbing alu pipings, Apexi openpod
- HKS EVC6
- EManage Ultimate piggyback

On my previous dyno on stock TF035 turbo, injector n fuel pump, i was getting 170bhp/240nm at the wheel. This was with max boost at 1.1bar at lower rpm and taper down to 0.9bar at above 4500rpm set using EVC6. Duty cycle of injectors approx 90% at full boost. Fuel consumption was good at 11-12km/L

After changing to hybrid turbo, 390cc injectors and fuel pump, with everything else as they were, i was getting lower figues of 166bhp/223nm at the wheel!! This time round injector duty cycle only at 62% full boost. 02 readings looks ok. One thing i observed after leaving the garage was that my EVC6 was set at the lower boost setting (EVC6 allows 2 boost settings) and the 'peak' boost was only at exactly 1bar. I didn't managed to ask the tuner if he had switch it to the higher boost setting during tuning. Nevertheless, the dyno graph shows boost at 1.1 - 0.9bar, just like the graph during my dyno on stock TF035 turbo.

My tuner was explaining that the stock ECU is restricting boost at 1.1bar max and anything above it will trigger CEL. He said if I want to boost above 1.1bar to get better figures, gotta get 3bar MAP sensor to tune and reflash ECU to remove boost and rpm cut.

That aside, I was wondering why the bigger turbo gave lower figures compared to the stock turbo? Does boost at 1.1bar return same amount of boosted compressed air no matter what size the turbo is?

What can I do to achieve better results?

[0dd0ne]

Get a proper exhaust and manifold...

[rokkuchan]

and reflash or full standalone ecu

[Macca]

And a new tuner, Our cars run a MAF sensor, not a MAP sensor.

Thats why you had a disappointing result due to the tuner.

You could take the turbo to a turbo builder and get a flow test done on it

[orixy]

And a new tuner, Our cars run a MAF sensor, not a MAP sensor.

Thats why you had a disappointing result due to the tuner.

You could take the turbo to a turbo builder and get a flow test done on it

Yep, am aware the rcolt run MAF cos mine got damaged and replaced recently. The 3 bar MAP sensor is for tuning purposes. Turbo cars run on 2 bars - ie. vacuum and max boost. The 3rd bar is for tuning boost levels above the max boost.

Yah, prob the tuner had an off day... anyway, the car still drives ok and mid to high end boost really strong.

[Macca]

No 3 bar MAP sensor means it will read up to 3 BAR's of pressure. One BAR = about 14.7 psi. BAR is a reference to the absolute pressure in our atmosphere.

turbo cars are under vacuum, negative pressure below atmospheric pressure, when the turbo is not pumping much and then once the pressure becomes over atmospheric pressure its building boost pressure

[orixy]

Google told me these:

1 Bar MAP sensors are used on NA(naturally asperated) vehicles.
2 Bar MAP Sensors are used on forced induction vehicles(Turbo & Supercharged). They can measure up to 2x the apmospheric pressure(29.4psi), so that means it can measure up to 14.7psi boost(the atmosphere is 14.7psi + 14.7psi from the turbo/supercharger).
3 Bar MAP sensors can measure up to 44.1psi, which translates to 29.7psi boost from a Turbo/supercharger.

[Macca]

correect, thats right.

[tingtw]

You need inputs from both MAF and MAP for a more refined and complete tune. There isn’t a MAP sensor on Version–R so my tuner installed a HKS 3bar MAP sensor at the throttle body. Thus my HKS F–CON iS was tuned with both MAF and MAP inputs.


And a new tuner, Our cars run a MAF sensor, not a MAP sensor.

Thats why you had a disappointing result due to the tuner.

You could take the turbo to a turbo builder and get a flow test done on it

[tingtw]

Yo bro, you misunderstood the word bar as in 3bar MAP sensor. The bar we’re discussing here is an unit for pressure.


Yep, am aware the rcolt run MAF cos mine got damaged and replaced recently. The 3 bar MAP sensor is for tuning purposes. Turbo cars run on 2 bars - ie. vacuum and max boost. The 3rd bar is for tuning boost levels above the max boost.

Yah, prob the tuner had an off day... anyway, the car still drives ok and mid to high end boost really strong.

[Macca]

You need inputs from both MAF and MAP for a more refined and complete tune. There isn’t a MAP sensor on Version–R so my tuner installed a HKS 3bar MAP sensor at the throttle body. Thus my HKS F–CON iS was tuned with both MAF and MAP inputs.

Yes, In Australia there is a hand full of guys with aftermarket ECu, who do run MAP sensors, as thats what the ECU was built for.

Everyone else runs stock ECU reflashed. And most use stock boost control reflashed

[odysseyesm]

Get a proper exhaust and manifold...

Yep.
Doesn't matter what your turbo can do or what your fuel pump or injectors can cope with. If that exhaust can't get the gas out ur waisting money.
You'll probably get better results with the stock turbo set-up and a good free flowing exhaust.
Then get a reflash.

[runuts]

Its a tune issue, nothing else. Your tuner himself said the stock ecu airflow limits were being hit. The TD04L in the TF035 housing would make far more power than the stock TF035. It removes alot of restriction on the exhaust side alone, although it is still using the stock housing.

If you trust your tuner, get it reflashed and sorted. Personally, I'd find a tuner that is competent with the stock ecu and ditch the piggy back.

Keep us updated

[smugsley]

Its a tune issue, nothing else. Your tuner himself said the stock ecu airflow limits were being hit. The TD04L in the TF035 housing would make far more power than the stock TF035. It removes alot of restriction on the exhaust side alone, although it is still using the stock housing.

If you trust your tuner, get it reflashed and sorted. Personally, I'd find a tuner that is competent with the stock ecu and ditch the piggy back.

Keep us updated

+1 especially consdiering stock colts are making that with a good tune

[orixy]

You need inputs from both MAF and MAP for a more refined and complete tune. There isn’t a MAP sensor on Version–R so my tuner installed a HKS 3bar MAP sensor at the throttle body. Thus my HKS F–CON iS was tuned with both MAF and MAP inputs.

Yeps, maybe wil get one for my EMU

[orixy]

Its a tune issue, nothing else. Your tuner himself said the stock ecu airflow limits were being hit. The TD04L in the TF035 housing would make far more power than the stock TF035. It removes alot of restriction on the exhaust side alone, although it is still using the stock housing.

If you trust your tuner, get it reflashed and sorted. Personally, I'd find a tuner that is competent with the stock ecu and ditch the piggy back.

Keep us updated

Well, I reckon you guys are darn right its a tune issue... will see what i will do after i talk to tuner again.

Anyway, its my 3rd day driving after the "upgrades" and found its about 300-500rpm more laggy compared to before. But when boost comes, its really strong and I could hit 100km/h easily & car feels much less stressed compared to the stock TF035. At least some positives!

[Mitsiman]

What you have is a complete mess up of configurations and it has nothing to do with your larger turbo, although your existing exhaust setup is also restrictive (Although better than stock)

The Emanage is completely messing up the stock ecu, made worse by the fact that you are using larger injectors. The poor ecu would be so confused I am amazed its even running.

Ditch all of that stuff, relfash the ecu and you will get rid of all yor problems, make much much more power and be amazed at the difference.

[orixy]

What you have is a complete mess up of configurations and it has nothing to do with your larger turbo, although your existing exhaust setup is also restrictive (Although better than stock)

The Emanage is completely messing up the stock ecu, made worse by the fact that you are using larger injectors. The poor ecu would be so confused I am amazed its even running.

Ditch all of that stuff, relfash the ecu and you will get rid of all yor problems, make much much more power and be amazed at the difference.

why is it a complete mess of config? and why is emanage completely messing up stock ecu?

[Mitsiman]

Without going into full details, we don't ahve all day, the emanage in order to tune the vehicle with the larger injectors, has to alter the MAF scaling values going into the ECU. Altering these scalings alters the factory ECU load values for drive by wire throttle body (Effectivly making it slower on throttle response), ignition timing (Raising it higher and making it more prone to detonation), leaning it out on the air/fuel ratios etc.

The other problem is the emanage is probably tuning it fine at 100% throttle, but at medium to high throttle loads if you did a datalog the AFR's will be all over the place.

I tried using these methods many many years ago on vehicles - and they are all resulted in failure.

[Turbotech]

This is common. Many owners change to larger turbos and end up dissapointed. There are many things not just fuel injectors. Here's your solution :-

a. the stock tf035 was matched for maximum turbo efficientcy at 0.8bar. The power zone at this pressure will be from 2800rpm to 6000rpm before it get's out of its efficientcy zone and boost drops with the hp. The turbo is running at 76% efficientcy and pumping approx. 150cfm at max.

b. if you push the stock turbo to 1.3bar, the low end remains the same but at 5200rpm, the TF035 runs out of steam. At this point, the poor TF035 is running at 68% efficientcy and flowing ~200cfm. After 5200rpm, it will just choke up and goes into the danger zone and bye bye turbo.

c. after changing to the TD04 internals, i assume your compressor is a 13T from a WRX, which is the most common, the flow characteristics have changed drastically. At 1 bar and 150cfm, the TD04 is not even starting to run, it's just walking. It is not even reaching it's maximum efficientcy. At this point, it is at most 65% efficient and when compared to stock of 76%, you have lost 11% turbo efficientcy, it's no rocket science you have lost hp.

d. now comes the fun part. run this upgraded turbo at say 1.3bar or for the fun of it here, 1.5bar, things will start to fall into place. At the low end, more exhaust gas is needed to spool the larger turbines up, so 300-500rpm lag is common. Boost should start building from ~3000rpm and at 4000, full boost should be there and ALL the way to 7500rpm if your engine allows. The "TD04" in sheep's clothing starts to bite. At this point, the TD04 is 78% efficient and flowing a massive 280cfm. HP is directly linked to airflow and pressure, at this point if 150cfm is doing 170hp, expect 300+ HP theoratically. But your other systems such as engine internals, tuning and fuel systems will be the limiting factor.

So, in simple terms. No pain, no gain. No pressure, no pleasure. Get a reflash and up the boost. Once you hit 1.3 bar, enjoy....

[orixy]

The AFR from Dynapack's O2 readings during tuning were abt 11.5 for 0 to approx 4500rpm (boost approx 1.1bar) and 12.5 for 4500rpm onwards (boost taper off to approx 0.9bar). Is that ok?

[Macca]

not the best, I would have gone for more like 13 on spool to about 3000 then dropped them to 11.5 for the rest

[Turbotech]

At lower rpms ~ 3k, AFR should be 12.5 to 13. Won't have must boost there. At boost from 3-5k should be 12-12.3, then 5K onwards around 11.5. Drivability depends on the 3-5K zone AFR. Some like to set it a bit richer at around 3K to help spool the turbo and gives a better kick but some like to set it leaner to give the car more linear power, highly depends on driving styles.
If your ECU can have dual maps, I've got that in my MOTEC, when I drive, I want to feel the kick I select the richer mapping. But if my wife drives, she prefers no surprises. HAHA...woman

And as with the rest, ditch the bloody piggyback and get a proper reflash. Proper boost levels 1.2-1.3 bar, good AFR, good ignition timing and then it will fly. The pig cannot provide all these 3 critical parameters. If i was asked to tune a piggy, I will not even touch it.

[orixy]

Thanks guys for all your comments and recommendations. I see lotsa condemnations on piggyback... well, full ECU reflash is not commonly available nor popular as compared to piggybacks here in Sg... so well...

[lovecolt]

Thanks guys for all your comments and recommendations. I see lotsa condemnations on piggyback... well, full ECU reflash is not commonly available nor popular as compared to piggybacks here in Sg... so well...

Why don't you try the HKS FCon? Believe Tingtw's using it and it has been good....

[orixy]

Why don't you try the HKS FCon? Believe Tingtw's using it and it has been good....

I wld love the FCon but at almost 3x the price of the EMU... well...