Carbon fibre; help needed

[Chipokae]

Ok guys, i've been thinking for a while now and have decided that carbon fibre bits are they way to go for better performance, in particular, we lower the centre of gravity for our car by getting a carbon fibre roof. fortunately for me, i know a carbon fibre guy who as agreed to have a look at the cost of making us c/f roofs and the feasbility of making one. but now i need your help. I need one of you guys to know or be a panel beater and let me know how to remove the roof. i've chosen to change the roof to c/f and not the bonnet as our bonnet already has a big ass hole in it (which should make it lighter) AND probably wouldnt help with lowering the centre of gravity, BUT, if the c/f roof works, i'll look into getting a c/f bonnet for us made as well.
please help for the greater good. photos would be appreciated or maybe we can meet up somewhere to see how its done. im going to the c/f place in 2 weeks time, so we dont have much time left to work out how to remove the roof.
thanks in advance,
Jeff

[lovecolt]

Hi Jeff: nice idea although it might cost us around $5k for the exercise. IMO, i don't think one can remove the total roof as the chassis comes in 1 piece. I would imagine that you can cut out most of the roof out (Like the way they do sunroof), replace it with CF and left the most outer edge alone.

Judging by how a CF engine bonnet's around 2K, the double area sized roof should be around 4k. So plus the labour to cut the roof and sort, most likely at least 5-6k.

But CF engine bonnet for our car is definitely good. Although we have a big ass hole in the middle + a small total surface area, the bonnet is actually very heavy. Tried lifting my mate's mx5 stock aluminium bonnet and its lighter than ours despite them having a bigger surface area.

For panel beater, i can ask my mechanic to see who did he normally refer his clients to for this things.

[GucciPiggy]

There is no way this will ever be road legal. Carbon fibre shatters into nice sharp little pieces in an accident.

[lovecolt]

well, consider a BMW M3 CSL has a CF roof, i'm sure it can be road legal.....but not sure if aftermarketing the roof can be engineered as easy as coming out of factory.

[Chipokae]

heheh guys, i said i know a carbon fibre guy should be getting mates rates. at the rough price guide i've been given, it "shouldnt" cost more than a thousand bucks.... hopefully. but im still feeling positive. but there is a problem now. i had no idea that the roof was attached to soemthing else, can anyone verify this? i've just thought that we can remove the roof as one piece. if there is a way to do it without having to cut holes in the car, then im all ears. please, if anyone else has any ideas please let me know. if it doesnt work out, i'll still get a price for a CF bonnet and maybe we can organise some sort of a group buy. the price that im getting these items at should be some pretty nice "mate's rates"... so to speak so, if anyone has ideas on CF bits, please let me know.

[lovecolt]

I will check my workshop manual to see if it mention anything about the roof. But if its less than 1k, i'm all up for it :D

[killercolt]

Here are a few bits to get done:

1.All of the black plastic around the car

2.Mirrors

3.Engine Cover

4.Radio Console

[Steve-B]

sorry guys, i might be abit out of line here, but the roof ? yeah a csl m3 might have one but they have been engineered and crash tested to make sure they arnt a problem. Im pretty sure an engineer would have a problem with cutting the roof off. Our roof would be welded from the inside of the car onto the frame and would defiantly need to be cut out, the roof isnt something made to be easily taken on and off. They put it on with the thought that it wont be coming off. Ever.
CF bonnet, door inserts, centre console parts, bootlids, these things, easy to take off and combined would make the weight losses your after, but with all that said, if you know someone with an rcolt that is willing to give their roof in the spirit of r&d and got this to work, every man and his dog here and in Jp would be interested i would say.

[Rdster]

The roof is actually pressed, and forms part of the car's monocoque.
You can't just cut the roof out, and retrofit a piece of CF in it's place.
It's alot more complicated than that, in regards to finish and the correct bonding to the existing monocoque.
It could be done,but the cost would be herrendous,for what gain?

It's quite straight forward to manufacture fenders, mirrors, bonnets, interior trim etc, as these components are not stressed members, and have a bolt on/bolt off
application.

The M3 CSL monocoque is designed in a way that the CF roof in incorporated on the production line, and forms the part of a stressed member.You would also find that the M3 CSL CF roof also consists of structual members, therefore, it's not just a piece of flat CF.

[lovecolt]

Actually guys, the whole point of CF the roof, is to lower the centre of gravity to aid cornering more than the actual weight saved for straight line acceleration. But i do agree, its not very feasible way to achieve that.

[Chipokae]

ok, thanks for all the input guys, i had no idea that the roof was not suppsed to be removed, in my mind, i always thought that the roof was an easily removed metal sheet; obviously not right. but i'll tell you what, i will still get the price on a cf bonnet.
Lovecolt, you're right, all i wanted to do was lower the centre of gravity for the car NOT SPECIFICALLY to lose weight. our car has issues with cornering related to our high and heavy "bus like" appearance. so what i wanted to do (thinking outside the square) was to remove the weight to lower the centre of gravity. lower the centre of gravity, corner better. simple. but it seems its not so simple hehehe. but thats all cool guys, live and learn. i'll get back to you guys about the cf bonnet when i get a better idea on whats going on.

Just another question though, how often do you see a non fatal car accident that involves the roof being crushed/damaged? i think you'll find the answer is "not very often". but thats just my thoughts

Thanks to you all for your help. if anyone has any ideas on what else can be made in cf for decent weight reductions and performance gains, please let me know. thanks to guccipiggy, steve-b, killercolt, rdster and lovecolt for all the valuable input thusfar.

keep those thoughts coming guys. if you never ask, you'll never learn

[lovecolt]

Besides CF bonnet, the next best thing is CF boot. But i think that is getting abit to the hardcore edge. Then, there's always things like CF front / rear guard panel / doors.

[ozdick]

Just another question though, how often do you see a non fatal car accident that involves the roof being crushed/damaged? i think you'll find the answer is "not very often". but thats just my thoughts


Here's one.
In this case, the Audi driver was doing 250km/h when he crashed.
As you can see, the roof of the car was torn off - but he managed to walk away and call for help

http://www.boltdj.com/Drivergotout.pps

PS. You'll need MS powerpoint viewer to see the presentation

[killercolt]

Just an idea has anyone approached lets say Whiteline suspension to see if they can devolop some Swaybars for the car that would aid in better conering also an anti lift kit would be great i had these on a turbo starlet handled like it was on rails.Also i will approach my local Pedders to see if they can make some lowered springs for the colt

[lovecolt]

Just an idea has anyone approached lets say Whiteline suspension to see if they can devolop some Swaybars for the car that would aid in better conering also an anti lift kit would be great i had these on a turbo starlet handled like it was on rails.Also i will approach my local Pedders to see if they can make some lowered springs for the colt

Apparently, the sway bar making business of whiteline has been taken over by Superior Suspension. And one of the distributor of Superior Suspension "In The Red Performance Tuning" (http://inthered.com.au/) told me that they can make one for the RColt if we can left our car with them for a few days. The price is around 230 - 260 AUD for fixed/adjustable sway bars.

Pity that i'm too far away and i need my car daily. Hence, if someone's willing to let them develop a sway bar, i will buy the ready product :D

Unit 7 10-12 Montore Road Minto/Campbelltown 2566, NSW

Phone: 02 9603 5449 (Speak to Elee, saying you are from ozhothatches forum)

[hendo]

pedders have springs im getting the next week cant remember part number but any spring for the normal colt will go in the rcolt

[killercolt]

I will check pedders out this weekend and look in to the whiteline issue soon.

thanks for the info.

[Steve-B]

Hey Guys,
I was lined up to be whitelines test dummy for the whole suspension kit. They require the car for a minimum of 2 days, they have no real warranty or promise that the car wont be "driven spiritedly" for the need of research and development.
Since i start work @ 8 i cant drop the car off to them before they open, and they best they could do for me, was that they said to drop the keys off the the warehouse next door and they would take car of my car. Firstly i just spent 30g on a new car, they couldnt even give me a name of a factory worker next door, so id be leaving my car with a total stranger in the "hope" they would be honest and give them the car.
They give you a R&D discount which they wont give you a price / idea over the phone, but its over 50% off, they do all the work, free wheel alignments etc etc. But its not a drive in drive out thing.
They require your car for future "track days" to test new products, if they develop a new bush kit or sway kit or whatever they expect you to come back and leave the car with them when they need it. You basically enter into a verbal contact to be their bitch for an undisclosed time, for undisclosed product prices.
Not to put anyone off, but if they had convinced me of their integrity and loyality and passion for me and my vehicle I would of left my car with them, but instead they couldnt understand my hesitation and told me " Mate we have really expensive cars in here, so you have nothing to worry about....."
just my thought on the processs..

[killercolt]

Well forget that idea for whiteline i will wait till some jap tuner release there sway bars and i will just get lowered springs for now it will keep the mod bug at bay for a few weeks.

[Rdster]

if anyone has any ideas on what else can be made in cf for decent weight reductions and performance gains, please let me know

It would probably come down to how good your CF guy is. :)

CF front fenders & bonnet would be a good start. Maybe even manufacture the fenders and bonnet as one piece.
As mentioned previously, the doors, front and rear,would be good, as these are fairly heavy standard items.And of course, the rear hatch.

Another racing trick is to replace side and rear glass with Lexan.However, I don't know whether anybody here in Australia is capable of manufacturing that.

[Steve-B]

something tells me with the angles of our bonnet and the difficulty it posses ie it isnt flat and having an easy subframe. I am guessing they will come out pretty expensive, no matter how well the cf guy will hook you up.
But if you make one, im sure id buy one. lol.

[Noel]

Hate to add more bad news, but even if this was engineered and properly R&D as a retrofit replacement or add-on to the car. It'd cost alot more than $1K regardless for real carbon fibre. Not to mention, raw carbon fibre is in a global shortage now (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/07/ruh-roh-carbon-fiber-in-short-supply/).

Carbon fibre is sold in raw material and by weight. Which on market price now costs approximately USD $20 a pound. On an estimated scale, you will need approximately 150-180 pounds of raw CF for the size of the Colt's roof not inclusive of labor, production and autopreg costs. Do the math, I don't have to tell you why dry carbon is somewhat the most exotic material to be used in aerospace, advance automotive now.

[Chipokae]

ok guys, the possibility of carbon fibre bonnets is a REALITY now. we will be looking at about $1300 for a cf bonnet IF we can get the numbers up. I am looking for 5 people. the bonnets should give us a 75% reduction of weight in the bonnets. an xr6t's bonnet was done recently and managed to shave a WHOPPING 23kgs off the weight (from 29kgs to 6kgs). we can have it made in clear (CF pattern) or have it in colour (to match the car). The global shortage of cf will not pose a problem to us as i know a cf supplier who can justify and sell to us cf cloth.
so here is your chance people. let me know who wants in and i can organise the numbers and cut those costs down. there will not be a single bonnet made until i can get at least 5 or 6 people to go ahead as i will need to organise the making for a mould.
the bonnet will be the same as our current one but all cf or we can have the frames made in fibreglass and the skin as cf. getting the frames made in fibre glass (fg from now on) will cut the costs but will add weight. so i think a whole cf bonnet is the go. so lets express some interest guys and get these bonnets made!!!!

[lovecolt]

So, you mean if we can get a group buy, it will be less than $1300 for each? Or $1300 is the group buy price?

[Chipokae]

depends on the numbers. if we get the numbers up (Say 8+) then it'll come down more otherwise it'll have to be $1300. please also bear in mind that this will not happen until i get interest from 5 or more people because if we have only 2 interested parties then we're going to be paying alot more than $1300.

[27AME]

By saying its possible, do you mean these bonnets will be mod-plated and designed to ADR standards?

[Chipokae]

not sure what you mean by mod plated and adr standars but the xr6t bonnet that was made was registered with RTA and street legal.... (i've been told)

[lovecolt]

I don't think CF bonnet is even legal for australia road.

[Steve-B]

chipo, put me down buddy. but i want it identical to my current bonnet, dead straight, air vent etc etc. if thats the g-o, put me down for 1 bad boy.

[Chipokae]

yeah! good stuff steve! any others? we need numbers. im in for one too. if we get this going, the first one will be made for my car and you guys can all have a look and decide after. but first, we need 5 or more people to give it the go ahead, and dont worry, i DONT accecpt second best. so if the guys done a shit job, you can be sure we wont be accepting the goods and he loses business from all of us. guess thats the power of group buying.

[Steve-B]

any love yet ?

[Noel]

I don't think CF bonnet is even legal for australia road.

Within reason, it's subjective. To get it properly legalized, engineering certification to truly stay out of trouble.

Exotics spot CF or fibreglass with no issues due to proper engineering certification of course.

[Chipokae]

sadly, steve-b there just hasnt been any love at all (except from you) but the offer is still there. hopefully when the forum grows, so will the interest.

Noel>> do you have any idea how we can actually get cf certification?

[Steve-B]

maybe send ryan from justjdm.com an email as he sells alot of evo and colt gear, he might buy 3-4 and we can get ones and go from there...